Difference between revisions of "Talk:Trout Mask Replica"
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[[User:Maroual|Maroual]] 08:58, 24 May 2008 (PDT) | [[User:Maroual|Maroual]] 08:58, 24 May 2008 (PDT) | ||
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| + | ==Comments on Version 2== | ||
| + | *Background info duplicates much of the Zappa piece, so could be trimmed, or is not relevant to the TMR article so could be dropped all together. | ||
| + | *Do you have any references for the Conceptual Continuity section? | ||
| + | *Versions: was Straight distributed by CBS at that time - I think it says on the sleeve somewhere. | ||
| + | *Reviews add nothing to the article and should just be an external link to [http://www.beefheart.com/datharp/reviews/troutrev2.htm elsewhere]. | ||
| + | *Timings: Easter was on April 6th in 1969. John French [http://vpinterviews.blogspot.com/2005/04/magic-band.html says four and a half hours] in the studio. | ||
| + | --[[User:Duncan|Duncan]] 12:37, 24 May 2008 (PDT) | ||
== Trout Page Layout 2 == | == Trout Page Layout 2 == | ||
Revision as of 12:37, 24 May 2008
Hi. Thought I'd have a go at syntaxing the Trout Mask Replica album page to wiki style.
Rather than face 'public humiliation' resulting from drastic editing on the page proper by those more knowledgeable than me, I thought I'd grab a bit of metaphorical 2x4 and shove it falteringly to center stage from the wings for discussion/edits/whatever. (Can you see the join, hear the roar of the greasepaint & smell the crowd?)
Maybe the uncredited players should have gone in notes at the foot, but I thought it relevant to 'clear up' who is actually who in the bandlist asap- identifying ALL the players at the start so that they can be sourced in the wiki (without discovering them later at the foot)?
To keep it wiki I've looped back to FZ interest at the foot with the cross-polinating band members. Probably more internal/external links needed too.
PS: I don't have CD reissue/haven't researched, just repeated album list for now. My page suggestion:(--Tonefish 10:30, 22 May 2008 (PDT))
Your tracklist as well as the rest of the article looks better than the old one ;-)
One question, do you own the LP? If yes, may I suggest you to write the timings printed on the LP cover in the LP column, I can put the actual CD timings in the CD column (see also the remarks after the Talk:Freak Out!#Tracks Timing tab).
Regarding Duncan's comments, I could not find "Beefheart's House" or the "bottleneck style of playing" mentionned in my CD liner notes.
Maroual 13:13, 22 May 2008 (PDT)
1) Yes, have the album. Have already transcribed correct timings as printed on sleeve. If you have the CD we're there!
2) Regarding 'perhaps'...If you look at current page, I simply adjusted 'leader text' that was already there & trying not to step on toes of whoever wrote it originally. I did want to replace it with something said of the album at the time. I will address it.
3) Players list looks good- very neat & tidy. I get the picture now... update it to what is currently known of past events and qualify at foot if necessary.
4) "Beefheart's House"...again, I took this from orig notes on existing page. However, it's theoretically correct as the album was developed in Beefheart's house on Ensenada Drive, Woodland Hills, CA (also referred to as the Magic Band house). None of this is on sleeve notes, but elsewhere-eg the booklets in CDs I'd referred to as source. Leave it with me, I'll tweek.
Is it OK to use daggers† or is this practice considered sloppy††?
†no daggers in the wiki. ††leave 'em well alone.
Also think it's important to use that useful editorial tool the 'square box/parenthesis' to indicate: [editorial 'interference' here, applying/adding a meaning/extra-info/context to the isolated item etc]...
5) Bottleneck. Yep, should be in next section, not Liner. (Thought it pertinent- I was going to fire the link to suitable source)
6) Gary Marker. Was in the house (developing tracks with CB/JF/BH & still in Rising Sons) up to the 'Big Recording' of 26 tracks. He laid down his 2 tracks (about 8 months?) earlier with FZ. Also relevant for overview of/with FZ & Rising Sons appearing in same gigs etc, plus external link opportunities to the Ry Cooder/Beefheart conflicts. I think it (or something similar) needs to be there for 'background',...maybe qualifying No 4 above as well? However, think you're right about the other bit on Magic members going to other page.
7) There ARE already 3 album reviews at foot of current page. Think they're ideal there & should stay. Didn't put them in example here 'cos I took it as read they'd stay, in the same manner that album reviews appear at album footers elsewhere. I assume you think it might all get cluttered? How about just inserting 'tempting tidbits' with links to full reviews & calling section Media Comments?
8) Looked for syntax info on order of listing Players, couldn't find, but assumed it to be Alpha by Last Name with exception of FZ [or Bandleader] at head- (the style I used in listing the Tours/1982 members elsewhere) your thoughts on this?
9) Finally, any chance of a cover photo in thingy-box top right?
This was just a first thrust. I'll have another go with my honer & put a 2nd 'clean' version (without comments) below first- so we can compare in one view & list new comment/s above it. Thanks --Tonefish 08:35, 23 May 2008 (PDT)
- Go for the full article page we can always tweak it a bit if needed [Yeah! - Maroual 15:03, 23 May 2008 (PDT)]. Replace reviews (which albums have reviews?) with...
The high point of our relationship (according to Rolling Stone -- and aren't they some kind of authority on these matters?) was making the Trout Mask Replica album together in 1969. Don is not technically oriented, so, first I had to help him figure out what he wanted to do, and then, from a practical standpoint, how to execute his demands. I wanted to do the album as if it were an anthropological field recording -- in his house. The whole band was living in a small house in the San Fernando Valley (we could use the word cult in here). I was working with Dick Kunc, the recording engineer on Uncle Meat and Cruising with Ruben & the Jets. To make remote recordings in those days, Dick had a Shure eight-channel mixer remounted in a briefcase. He could sit in a corner at a live gig with earphones on and adjust the levels, and have the outputs of the briefcase mixer feeding a Uher portable tape recorder. I had been using that technique with the M.O.I. for road tapes. I thought it would be great to go to Don's house with this portable rig and put the drums in the bedroom, the bass clarinet in the kitchen and the vocals in the bathroom: complete isolation, just like in a studio -- except that the band members probably would feel more at home, since they were at home. We taped a few selections that way, and I thought they sounded terrific, but Don got paranoid, accused me of trying to do the album on the cheap, and demanded to go into a real recording studio. So we moved the whole operation to Glendale, into a place called Whitney, the studio I was using at that time -- owned by the Mormon church. The basic tracks were cut -- now it was time for Don's vocals. Ordinarily a singer goes in the studio, puts earphones on, listens to the track, tries to sing in time with it and away you go. Don couldn't tolerate the earphones. He wanted to stand in the studio and sing as loud as he could -- singing along with the audio leakage coming through the three panes of glass which comprised the control-room window. The chances of him staying in sync were nil -- but that's the way the vocals were done. Usually, when you record a drum set, the cymbals provide part of the 'air' at the top end of the mix. Without a certain amount of this frequency information, mixes tend to sound claustrophobic. Don demanded that the cymbals have pieces of corrugated cardboard mounted on them (like mutes), and that circular pieces of cardboard be laid over the drum heads, so Drumbo wound up flogging stuff that went "thump! boomph! doof!" After it was mixed, I did the editing and assembly in my basement. I finished at approximately 6:00 A.M. on Easter Sunday, 1969. I called them up and said, "Come on over; your album is done." They dressed up like they were going to Easter church and came over. They listened to the record and said they loved it. The last time I saw Don was 1980 or '81. He stopped by one of our rehearsals. He looked pretty beat. He had gone back and forth with some contracts at Warner Bros., and it just hadn't worked out. I suppose he is still living in Northern California, but not recording anymore. He bought some property up there -- someplace where he could see whales swim by.
Duncan 12:22, 23 May 2008 (PDT)
Trout Mask Replica
A Side Project in collaboration with FZ as executive producer, Trout Mask Replica is perhaps one of the best-known and most acclaimed of Captain Beefheart albums. An incredible mix of influences crammed into a double LP, with a sound that seems to exist outside of most musical styles.
- Comment: we don't do "perhaps" and "seems". It either is or is not. Why is it "incredible"? But we do not need an introductory comment anyway.
Players
- Zoot Horn Rollo (Bill Harkleroad) - glass finger guitar, flute
- Antennae Jimmy Semens (Jeff Cotton) - steel-appendage guitar, vocal on Pena
- Captain Beefheart (Don Van Vliet)- bass clarinet, tenor sax, soprano sax, vocal
- The Mascara Snake (Victor Hayden) - bass clarinet & vocal
- Rockette Morton (Mark Boston) - bass & narration
- Doug Moon - guitar on China Pig
Uncredited
- Drumbo (John French) - drums, House track engineering & transcripts
- Gary Marker - bass guitar on Moonlight & Veteran
- FZ (comments on The Blimp)
Tracks
Double LP
Side One
Side Two
Side Three
Side Four
|
CD
|
Release Notes
Recorded at Whitney Studios, Los Angeles, CA; April 1969
Released 1969 (US Original) on Straight Records (STS 1053)
Produced by Frank Zappa
Arranged by Don van Vliet
Engineered by Dick Kunc
(Tracks 1:6 & 4:8 recorded & engineered by FZ at TTG Recorders, Los Angeles, CA; late 1968)
(Tracks 1:2, 1:5, 2:5, 3:3 & 4:1 recorded at Beefheart's House, Woodland Hills, CA)
- Comment: is it actually called Beefheart's House on the cover?
(Track 2:5 produced & engineered by Don Van Vliet)
(Track 4:1 produced by Don Van Vliet & engineered by John French)
Album design: Cal Schenkel
Photography: Ed Caraeff/Cal Schenkel
Special electronic modifications on Captain Beefheart's band equipment by Dick Kunc
Most recent in a long series of contract negotiations leading to an actual signing: Neil C. Reshen
Reissue CD design and restoration: Tom Recchion
All songs written by Captain Beefheart © 1969 Words & music copyrighted for the world by Beefheart Music Co. BMI
Liner Notes
'Glass finger guitar' suggests the bottleneck style of playing, brought to prominence by early blues musicians who literally used the neck of a broken bottle on their finger to create sustained sound-effects by oscillating it on the strings.
- Comment: "suggests"? Is this an actual Liner Note?
Background Information
- Comment: Does this have anything to do with the article Trout Mask Replica? Move to Magic Band page.
At the time of recording Gary Marker was the bass guitarist of The Rising Sons, fronted by Ry Cooder who had previously sessioned with the Magic Band.
Other than Captain Beefheart there is a lineage of Magic Band members who have also had a working relationship in FZ bands: Elliot Ingber (aka Winged Eel Fingerling), Art Tripp (aka Artie Tripp III/Ed Marimba/Ted Cactus), Roy Estrada (aka Orejon) & Denny Walley (aka Feelers Reebo).
Conceptual Continuity
Versions
Trout Mask Replica Album Reviews
No reviews. If they have anything interesting to add - Interview with Zappa - make a separate article page for them and link back to this page.
Hi. Had already reworked item before your next post popped up. Rather than reworking again I post it here as Trout Page Layout 2, complete with your posted Article added
Hi,
Few to say ;-)
Every album page should use the standard layout (which means no TOC, players and infobox sections at the very beginning).
I think the comments should be moved to, or right after, the Background Info section.
Maroual 08:58, 24 May 2008 (PDT)
Comments on Version 2
- Background info duplicates much of the Zappa piece, so could be trimmed, or is not relevant to the TMR article so could be dropped all together.
- Do you have any references for the Conceptual Continuity section?
- Versions: was Straight distributed by CBS at that time - I think it says on the sleeve somewhere.
- Reviews add nothing to the article and should just be an external link to elsewhere.
- Timings: Easter was on April 6th in 1969. John French says four and a half hours in the studio.
--Duncan 12:37, 24 May 2008 (PDT)
Trout Page Layout 2
This may help. Magic Band members on Trout Mask Replica. L to R: Harkleroad, Hayden, Beefheart, French, Cotton. Photo; Ed Caraeff, 1969.
Trout Mask Replica
Contents
- 1 Trout Mask Replica
- 2 Players
- 3 Tracks
- 4 Release Notes
- 5 Liner Notes
- 6 Background Information
- 7 Conceptual Continuity
- 8 Versions
- 9 Trout Mask Replica Album Reviews
- 10 Comments on Version 2
- 11 Trout Page Layout 2
- 12 Trout Mask Replica
- 13 Players
- 14 Tracks
- 15 Release Notes
- 16 Liner Notes
- 17 Background Information
- 18 Conceptual Continuity
- 19 Versions
- 20 Trout Mask Replica: FZ Comment
- 21 Trout Mask Replica: Media Comment
| Album History | |
|---|---|
| Previous | Next |
File:Trout mask replica.jpg Trout Mask Replica | |
| Released 1969 | |
| See also: Entry Here? | |
Players
- Captain Beefheart [ Don Van Vliet ] - (bass clarinet, tenor sax, soprano sax, simran horn, musette, vocal)
- Rockette Morton [Mark Boston] - (bass, narration)
- Antennae Jimmy Semens [Jeff Cotton] - (steel-appendage guitar, flesh horn, vocal on Pena)
- Zoot Horn Rollo [Bill Harkleroad] - (glass finger guitar, flute)
- The Mascara Snake [Victor Hayden] - (bass clarinet, vocal)
- Doug Moon - (guitar on China Pig)
Uncredited
- Drumbo [ John French ] - (drums, percussion)
- Gary Marker - (bass guitar on 'Moonlight' & 'Veteran')
- FZ (comments on The Blimp)
Tracks
Double LP
Side One
Side Two
Side Three
Side Four
|
CD
|
Release Notes
The LP
Recorded at Whitney Studios, Los Angeles, CA; April 1969
Released 1969 (US Original) on Straight Label (STS 1053)
Produced by Frank Zappa
Arranged by Don van Vliet
Engineered by Dick Kunc
Album design: Cal Schenkel
Photography: Ed Caraeff/Cal Schenkel
Special electronic modifications on Captain Beefheart's band equipment by Dick Kunc
Most recent in a long series of contract negotiations leading to an actual signing: Neil C. Reshen
All songs written by Captain Beefheart [© 1969 Words & music copyrighted for the world by Beefheart Music Co. BMI]
The CD reissue
As above, with the addition: CD design and restoration: Tom Recchion
Uncredited for both LP & CD
Tracks 1:6 & 4:8 recorded & engineered by FZ at TTG Recorders, Los Angeles, CA; c. late 1968
Tracks 1:2, 1:5, 2:5, 3:3 & 4:1 recorded on a 5" reel Uher stereo tape machine at the 'Magic Band' house, Ensenada Drive, Woodland Hills, CA
Track 2:5 produced & engineered by Don Van Vliet
Track 4:1 produced by Don Van Vliet & engineered by John French
The Blimp - recorded over telephone (vocal) and at Columbia University, New York, 1969
Liner Notes
Background Information
On this Side Project album FZ gave full creative control in its development to Captain Beefheart and Beefheart's home on Ensenada Drive in Woodland Hills, Topanga Canyon, CA, became the makeshift 'studio' in which the resultant 28 tracks were written and rehearsed from mid '68 to April '69 by the members of the Magic Band.
At this time the home became known as the Magic Band house. Due to both the closeted nature of this living room environment and Beefheart's off-the-wall method of working there were many fractious moments in this period, details of which can be found collectively in the booklets regarding Magic Band history contained within the Captain Beefheart compilation CDs 'The Dust Blows Forward: An Anthology' & 'Grow Fins: Rarities 1965-1982', both released in 1999. (The latter containing a previously unreleased version of a song taken from this Trout Mask Replica album, Orange Claw Hammer, with FZ on guitar).
Just before the release of the album there was an incident, involving Beefheart's replacement of drummer John French with Jeff Bruchell, which resulted in French- much to his chagrin- not being credited on the album or its write up in Rolling Stone magazine. French's input was fundamental in the structure of the tracks, both in his drumming skills and in his ability to transcribe Beefheart's often scribbled ideas into playable pieces for other band members. Much of the album's musical development was recorded daily on a domestic tape machine and portions of these recordings by Beefheart and French have been used directly on the album, adding to its musique concrète effect.
An attempt to professionally record 26 of the tracks at the Magic Band house was made by Dick Kunc and FZ, but failed. These recordings were finally completed in a six and a half hour session at Whitney Studios in April '69. The two tracks 'Moonlight On Vermont' and 'Veteran's Day Poppy' were recorded by FZ late in the previous year at TTG Recorders, Los Angeles, CA, with Gary Marker standing in for departed Magic Band member Jerry Handley. Gary helped develop these tracks, and others, with the other band members in the house. His involvement came about by virtue of his bass guitar work in The Rising Sons, fronted by Ry Cooder (a past Magic Band member), who's paths crossed on the gig circuit with those of The Mothers and the Magic Band. French says of these two tracks "There is a different sound on those songs which can be attributed to the fact that the studio had recently been refurbished to 'solid state' electronics, and Frank [Zappa] was still a little unfamiliar with the equipment". Neither Marker or the studio gained credit on the album.
In typical Beefheart fashion the sleeve notes provide ambiguous names for instruments. One such is 'Glass finger guitar' suggesting the bottleneck style of playing, brought to prominence by early blues musicians who literally used the neck of a broken bottle on their finger to create sustained sound-effects by oscillating it on the strings. Bill Harkleroad is an exponent of this playing style.
Conceptual Continuity
'Dali's car' is a track on the album. During the album's development the band visited Dali's art exhibition at the LA County Arts Museum. Dali's 'Car on Fire' is a Salvador Dali painting covering one wall of Frank Zappa's basement recording studio.
Versions
(I've got Straight STS 1053 original UK issue with gatefold E.J.Day print cover. Can supply full data if wanted)
Trout Mask Replica: FZ Comment
"...The high point of our relationship [between FZ and Beefheart] (according to Rolling Stone -- and aren't they some kind of authority on these matters?) was making the Trout Mask Replica album together in 1969. Don [van Vliet] is not technically oriented, so, first I had to help him figure out what he wanted to do, and then, from a practical standpoint, how to execute his demands. I wanted to do the album as if it were an anthropological field recording -- in his house. The whole band was living in a small house in the San Fernando Valley (we could use the word cult in here). I was working with Dick Kunc, the recording engineer on Uncle Meat and Cruising with Ruben & the Jets. To make remote recordings in those days, Dick had a Shure eight-channel mixer remounted in a briefcase. He could sit in a corner at a live gig with earphones on and adjust the levels, and have the outputs of the briefcase mixer feeding a Uher portable tape recorder. I had been using that technique with the M.O.I. for road tapes. I thought it would be great to go to Don's house with this portable rig and put the drums in the bedroom, the bass clarinet in the kitchen and the vocals in the bathroom: complete isolation, just like in a studio -- except that the band members probably would feel more at home, since they were at home. We taped a few selections that way, and I thought they sounded terrific, but Don got paranoid, accused me of trying to do the album on the cheap, and demanded to go into a real recording studio. So we moved the whole operation to Glendale, into a place called Whitney, the studio I was using at that time -- owned by the Mormon church. The basic tracks were cut -- now it was time for Don's vocals. Ordinarily a singer goes in the studio, puts earphones on, listens to the track, tries to sing in time with it and away you go. Don couldn't tolerate the earphones. He wanted to stand in the studio and sing as loud as he could -- singing along with the audio leakage coming through the three panes of glass which comprised the control-room window. The chances of him staying in sync were nil -- but that's the way the vocals were done. Usually, when you record a drum set, the cymbals provide part of the 'air' at the top end of the mix. Without a certain amount of this frequency information, mixes tend to sound claustrophobic. Don demanded that the cymbals have pieces of corrugated cardboard mounted on them (like mutes), and that circular pieces of cardboard be laid over the drum heads, so Drumbo John French wound up flogging stuff that went "thump! boomph! doof!" After it was mixed, I did the editing and assembly in my basement. I finished at approximately 6:00 A.M. on Easter Sunday, 1969. I called them up and said, "Come on over; your album is done." They dressed up like they were going to Easter church and came over. They listened to the record and said they loved it. The last time I saw Don was 1980 or '81. He stopped by one of our rehearsals. He looked pretty beat. He had gone back and forth with some contracts at Warner Bros., and it just hadn't worked out. I suppose he is still living in Northern California, but not recording anymore. He bought some property up there -- someplace where he could see whales swim by.
-Frank Zappa, The Real Frank Zappa Book
Trout Mask Replica: Media Comment
(Provided in chronological order)
"...it's very gratifying to say that Captain Beefheart's new album is a total success; a brilliant, stunning enlargeme and clarification of his art... The double record set costs as much as two regular albums... which is perhaps not so much to pay for 28 songs and what may well be the most unusual and challenging musical experience you'll have this year..."
- extracts from the review 'Trout Mask Replica' by Lester Bangs, Rolling Stone, July 26, 1969
"...Like so many of those around Beefheart, Zappa considers the man to be one of the few great geniuses of our time. When the smoke had cleared from the Blue Thumb snafu, Zappa came to Beefheart and told him that he would put out an album on his label, Straight Records. Whatever Beefheart wanted to do was O.K. and there would be no messing around with layers of electronic bullshit. The result was Trout Mask Replica, an album which this writer considers to be the most astounding and most important work of art ever to appear on a phonograph record... While it has roots in avant-garde jazz and Delta blues, Beefheart has taken his music far beyond these influences. The distinctive glass finger guitar of Zoot Horn Rollo and steel appendage guitar of Antennae Jimmy Semens continues the style of guitar playing which he has been developing from the start. It is a strange cacophonous sound --- fragmented, often irritating, but always natural, penetrating and true... For the first time in his career, Beefheart was entirely satisfied with his album. Zappa had made good his promise to give him the freedom he required and in fact issue the record in a pure and unaltered form... Herb Cohen of Straight [on the difficulties of working with Beefheart] recalls that one day he noticed that Beefheart had ordered 20 sets of sleigh bells for a recording session. Cohen pointed out that even if Frank Zappa and the engineer were added to the bell ringing this would account for only 14 sleigh bells --- one in each hand of the performers. "What are you going to do with the other six?" he asked. "We'll overdub them," Beefheart replied..."- extracts from "The Odyssey of Captain Beefheart" by Langdon Winner, Rolling Stone, May 14, 1970
"...Trout Mask Replica, his [Beefheart's] fourth album, is perhaps his most celebrated. The two-record set was produced by Frank Zappa, his childhood chum and musical benefactor. Often repellent but undeniably evocative song/poems such as "Neon Meate Dream of a Octafish," "Old Fart at Play" and "Orange Claw Hammer" reach out like acid nightmares... The music is dense and frenzied: Van Vliet's saxophone wails, and fractious time signatures and demented compositions reveal debts to Ornette Coleman, John Cage and Zappa without ever losing their original, visionary qualities. Some may find the album so disturbing as to be unlistenable, but it is a manifestation of forethought and precision masquerading as anarchy: Van Vliet and his Magic Band knew exactly what to play, where to play it and why it works..."- extracts from the article 'Trout Mask Replica' by Buddy Seigel, Los Angeles Times, March 25, 1983
