Talk:Naked Lunch

"Unfortunately because of its absurdity and strong drug content, the novel is often misinterpreted as merely a drug novel written by a delusional addict."

"Unfortunately" - Why?

"often misinterpreted as merely a drug novel" - by whom?

"a delusional addict" - what does that mean? Is it Delusional disorder or something else?

Duncan 06:15, 7 July 2008 (PDT)

Notes: Xenochrony

We do have a Xenochrony page. Duncan 06:48, 7 July 2008 (PDT)

Still having problems...

This was not a side project of Zappa's so needs another category - a single article about the Talking Asshole thing avoids such complications.

The book could not have captured the spirit of that which did not exist. It may have anticipated it but that is itself debatable - these things are more evolutionary than revolutionary.

William S. Burroughs, was hailed as a leader of this 'beat generation'? He was a founder of the small ("Three writers does not a generation make") but did anyone "hail" him as a leader?

Xenochrony is something more than cut & paste.

Duncan 13:37, 13 July 2008 (PDT)

I was about to edit the article...

...but I am still at a loss as to why we have a page about Naked Lunch on a Zappa wiki. The only Zappa connection is the reading of The Talking Asshole section - The Naked Lunch info could be included in the Notes on that page with a link to the fuller Wikipedia article. There may be a case for a separate Burroughs page.

Am I being too picky or is there a problem here?

Duncan 13:51, 13 July 2008 (PDT)

"The Nova Convention" (Album) was already listed by Emdebe in Side Projects when I began. If the Convention itself (or recital) isn't a side project then it is a "Performance" (Performances), as in the sub-divisions in On The Road...The recorded recital The Talking Asshole is surely a track? That's why I gave it a track format.

The convention/recital was a side project - Zappa participated but it was away from his mainstream of work. This article is about the book Naked Lunch which had no Zappa involvement.

Meanwhile...

I would say that Naked Lunch has more relevance to the wiki, in terms of linkage & influence to FZ involvement, than Burroughs, its author.

Naked Lunch has very few links and the book has no Zappa involvement.

Apart from the key link of 'Lunch' to The Talking Asshole & The Nova Convention: Entermedia Theater, Dec 1978, (Initiated and held by those who attended it, including FZ, as a tribute to Burroughs as a 'leader' of the generation), there are similarities in its pages to Zappa parodies & caricatures. 'Lunch' was also the subject of an FZ idea for a stage play - so its concept must have had some influence on him?

All the above could (should?) be on the Burroughs page or the The Talking Asshole page. It is very likely that it did have some influence but we have very little evidence that that is the case.

OK, to split hairs, in retrospect Burroughs became 'hailed' as a leader - but the beat movement arc, from 1960 to the seminar in 1978 could be served by having 'Lunch' as a page (its external link doesn't cover 'cut & paste' for example, unless you follow other external links - keeping 'Lunch' in this wiki enables conveying of such info) Note: Xenochrony is surely a sophisticated thematic to 'cut & paste' concept? I was even thinking of including FZ's enthusiasm for 'Sniglets'...along with 'portmanteau', but that's more Lewis Carroll?

On the Beat Movement wiki there would certainly be a Naked Lunch page. Cut and Paste could (should?) be included within the Xenochrony article and Sniglets/portmanteau probably deserve a mention in the general biography.

While I'm aware the wiki needs to go from A to B on FZ, it does, in my humble opinion, need some 'side-bars' that help readers/younger newcomers to gather the context in which FZ works occurred. Using external pointers can often give pages where there's only a tiny nugget of relevance. ie Sometimes the Wikipedia doesn't always do it better, where 'it' is an FZ piece of context that could simply be touched upon in the wiki...

The context would come from the broad sweep of the biography with the detail gleaned from individual articles. The scatter gun approach loads the articles with irrelevant links and info.

Maybe I'm trying to imbue this page with TMI (Too Much Information), but I was trying to get useful links to parallel activities surrounding FZs work that help 'paint a picture' - like the Freak List does, and the 'players' list on The Talking Asshole, etc.

Yes (See above comment) TMI. It is the picture painting that is the problem. Zappa is different things to different people at different times. If everyone came here and painted their view of Zappa it would become a very messy wiki. All we can do is provide whatever facts we can find in some kind of organised way as best we are able.

There were, of course, more than 3 in the Paris movement...& loads of stuff...a spirit I believe Burroughs' work did capture, working in the 'Beat Hotel' & 'Dream Machine' idea related to 'cut & paste', Norse's novel "Beat Hotel" too. 1960 bookshop worker Daevid Allen drawn to Paris by these works...handing out Teddy bears to police...then Gong... and the band's parodies & caricatures...his appearance at the FZ Amougies concert ...work with Soft Machine (back to a Burroughs novel)...later as Acid 'Mothers' Temple. (Paris association with Terry Riley & his improv music influenced by Stockhausen, ties with Kronos Quartet etc). Philip Glass' studies in Paris '63 under Nadia Boulanger & emergence of the work of Boulez. Etc, etc. Leap to mid 60's Latin-American jazz (Bozzio influences) & 'pachucos' & there's even a pre Malo band called "Naked Lunch"...then there's the Fugs... hell, there's so much intertwined with FZ that it surely helps to 'touch the buttons' on some of it inside the wiki before giving pointers to further info outside?

Yes - but break it down to relevant articles rather than trying to squeeze it all into one. We have The Fugs, Kronos Quartet, Stockhausen et.al. Are any of them mentioned in Naked Lunch? If not they do not belong here.

As for 'picky', not totally...but a bit...Don't get me wrong, I do see your concerns for the purity of the wiki. "Scuto bonae voluntatis tuae coronasti nos", as they say in Maryland.

If there's a case for a Burroughs page (that already exists via Propellerkuh) then how about one page, retitled "William S. Burroughs: Naked Lunch"? That's it. Nobody else has commented. You're the editor...be merciless --Tonefish 23:24, 13 July 2008 (PDT)

No. Naked Lunch should have a brief mention in William S. Burroughs with links to The Talking Asshole and external links to Wikipedia or elsewhere. Duncan 12:16, 14 July 2008 (PDT)

In response to your indents of my indents
The wisdom of the editor prevails...'spose that's why they gave you the onerous task! Thanks for your patience with my somewhat impatient approach. Was it Rhodes (not the Fender man) who said "So much to do - so little time", or something like that? At least the outcome will hopefully be a tad better than it was. Thanks --Tonefish 10:06, 19 July 2008 (PDT)