Zappa Wiki Jawaka talk:Community Portal

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Important Notes To Wiki Jawakers

I'm very excited about this website, and the way I see it, after a while, and with help, this is gonna be a very dynamite site!!! I've been contributing (I've started Freak Out!), and I need to address some topics.

  • When editing songs, make sure the time is not inside the link. The time is not part of the song!
  • And what does "Versions" mean on each song page. Would there be links to the song on other albums?

= = =

To add to the above...

Which version of an album gets to go where? To my mind Lumpy Gravy has two "tracks" - Part One and Part Two. I think the naming of sections as "tracks" comes from a CD version but not my particular CD version which only has the two tracks.

What does the splitting of the albums into decades mean? Is this the date they were released or recorded or what. I thought I first bought Burnt Weeny Sandwich in 1969 (I could be wrong).

If this is to be some historical/research/reference kind of thing would it make more sense to list the albums alphabetically. Do you organise the albums on your shelf by decade? If I did I would include Joe's Corsage with the sixties stuff, even though it was a recent release, because that is where it belongs.

Duncan

= =

== More stuff from the first guy ==

OK, I figured out what "Versions" means. (Yes, Duncan, I put my CD's on my shelf in chronological order. I realize I'm a bit nuts.) And according to the little pink thing that I got from Barfko Swill, BWS came out in February 1970. I have some more questions:

  • Which came first: Lumpy Gravy or WOIIFTM? I've seen both being first on different discographies. On the pink thing, it says that Lumpy came first.
  • Look at the link of I Ain't Got No Heart I did above. I had to make a new page so that the link would link to it. "I Ain't Got No Heart" didn't exist, according to the link, even though it does (I worked on it earlier). I guess that links can't link to other parts of the Wiki!!! If so, that is not good!!!!
  • When doing lyrics, like Thing-Fish, do we type in what it says in the libretto, or is that copyright infringement?? If it is c.i., what about the other songs with lyrics that are in the CD booklets? If it is not c.i., then do we type in lyrics exactly as they are in the booklets?
  • I'm adding "Writing/Production credits" to each album page, and "Players on this song" to each song page. (That wasn't a question, but what the hell.)
  • What will we do for the videography? Put in what everybody's saying, and each song that plays, like at "FZ Lyrics & Else"??

Thank everyone for this great site. Later.

--rdnZL


>according to the little pink thing that I got from Barfko Swill, BWS came out in February 1970.

What do they know? I refer you to the ultimate authority.... http://www.killuglyradio.com/discography/album/burnt_weeny_sandwich.php ...who also has LG first.

Duncan

WTF???

About "naming conventions", why does the article (a, an, the) belong at the end???? There is an FZ song "The Dangerous Kitchen" but no "Dangerous Kitchen, The". And why are musicians' last names first? Wouldn't just MAKE FRICKIN' SENSE to put the musician name as it is. Do you think it's confusing to have it alpha'd by last name, but (oh no!) the last name's not first? With all this logic (including the topics of my post above), Zappa Frank came out with an album WHO KNOWS WHEN (but it starts with a "G" (excluding the article because it doesn't deserve to be first)[because the first letter of the first word of an album is really where it's at]) called Grand Wazoo, [the]. I'm not trying to harrass you guys, but I just don't see the logic in these decisions. I'm sticking to "FZ Lyrics & Else" if this doesn't change.

--rdnZL


You are right! I shall not rest until I have persuaded the telephone people to send me a big fat book in which everyone is listed by their first name. I shall insist that my local record store groups The Beatles, The Grateful Dead, The Rolling Stones and The Who etc. etc. together under T for The.

In years to come our grandchildren will come across a list of great composers of the past; Beethoven will be under B and Mozart will be under M and Zappa will be under F. They might wonder if he had any children who recorded with him. Not knowing their names they would read through the long list of names to see if _______ Zappa comes up. When they eventually get to Moon they will have to keep reading the list just in case there are any more. This makes perfect frickin sense to me.


Duncan

Naming Conventions

The way I see it (or if you prefer: way I see it, the):

Going with "Zappa Dweezil" will make it easier to find that name in an alphabetical list. Good thing. It's what a librarian would do.

One thing to consider though (and that I have just recently come to realize - hey, I'm learnin' too!) is that it will then have to be typed out in that way within texts. You'd get sentences like: "Zappa's first son, Zappa Dweezil, went on to become an acclaimed musician." Bit awkward that. Same would go for lyrics for instance. Consider the following sentence: "There's a song on Chunga's Revenge called "Clap, The". More awkwardness. I just had a look at wikipedia.org and they actually go with "Firstname Lastname" for wiki-links.

I've written up a post on Hot Poop about this issue, so as to get some feedback from readers - feel free to discuss it there as well.

Obviously this is an issue that will need to be resolved quickly before we can move on...

-- KUR

I see no problem with Dweezil Zappa in a body of text (with a link to the DZ article). Which is what the Wikithingy article below seems to refer to. The problem comes when you are presented with a list of names (think phone book) when I wold instinctively look under Z for Zappa D (and any other related Zs that might be there. I would have strong doubts about the quality of a resource that did not do this.

Maybe one day we will not need a separate alphabetical list as all the names will be integrated into the text and fully cross linked with everything everywhere. I suspect that day is a very long way off. Should we start off with a Varese wiki and work our way up to someone as prolific as FZ ;-)

Duncan

Duncan says: "I see no problem with Dweezil Zappa in a body of text (with a link to the DZ article)"

But that's exactly where the problem lies. If you write up an article on Ahmet Zappa, and in that page you wish to use a wiki-link to Dweezil Zappa, you are going to have to type the name exactly as the Dweezil Zappa page is called.

i.e.: with the page name being "Zappa Dweezil", you will have to type your text as: "blabla bla [[Zappa Dweezil]] for it to be a correct link to that page. You cannot go "blablabla [[Dweezil Zappa]]" on one page, and "blabla [[Zappa Dweezil]] on another as you will effectively have produced two pages about the Dweez by doing this.

I hope that clears it up for you.

-- KUR

More from wikipedia.org

More reading on wikipedia:

Naming Conventions

I'm frankly starting to think I had it wrong with going "Lastname Firstname"...

Way I See it Barry, The

The issue of "naming" at this point has two different "camps": the one that takes into consideration that this is a cyber-reference and so names should appear as read, because that is how they will be searched; and the one that really wants this info to be presented as a hard-copy reference found in a library...

It seems quite apparent to me (and has from the start) that since we are creating a cyber-reference site, not a hard-copy reference, that all "titles" should appear as they would be read: first names first, articles in the front, etc. That's how your computer "reads" them and how it searches for them.

Ex: ever notice the different results you get when you type "frank zappa" vs "zappa, frank" or "zappa frank" into google? You will find more and better referals with the first, than the second. Because that's how the cyber world works.

But I'm just a slag, trying to do what Barry wants. I'm not really interested in shaping this wiki according to MY vision. I'll happily make it as difficult to use as Barry wants...

-- SOFA

SOFA's right

He's right about the fact that this is a hypertext-based work of reference, not a paper one.

That, coupled with my recent epiphany about articles having to be formatted in an awkward way just to fit the librarian inside us (The "A track on Chunga's Revenge is called 'Clap, The'" sentence did it for me) - leads me to the conclusion that we should use the "reader friendly" "First Name" convention.

I've started editing existing articles accordingly...

-- KUR

But...

If we are going with the hypertext version can we abandon the library like A - Z listings and make it a truly hypertext affair.

Duncan

Eventually, maybe

Well we need some point to start off from, no? For now these alphabetical lists are a handy tool to get to a page quickly and to see whether the page has already been edited/created or not.

Once the wiki starts to fill up with content (and provided contributors properly "wiki-link" names/album-titles/musicians/... in their articles), then we'll get to the stage of hypertext...

-- KUR

But the cyber world is not a long list of names arranged into some arbitrary order. If you are going to sort by first names you might as well sort by shoe size or hair length - they are all equally silly. You will end up with a list of almost one hundred tracks listed under T for The. Lists belong in databases where they can sorted and manipulated however you want them. A wiki is not the same as a database.

http://wiki.tcl.tk/2519


Please ignore the big smug grin spreading across my ugly face :-)

If you go to....

http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Music/Bands_and_Artists/

Where are you going to look for Frank Zappa?

Duncan

I see no other way to initiate the creation of single articles other than by using a list (whether alphabetical or by shoe-size is a moot argument) as a starting point. Again: if the single articles we're creating each contain proper wiki-links, the more articles we have the less need there will be for a general list.

The google directory is - guess what - a directory; not a wiki. Directories rely on heavy hierarchic structuring, wiki's rely on a pretty much flat structure where the cohesion is obtained by hyperlinks. Why attempt to shoehorn a wiki into a directory? It's like FZ singing country! :-)

--KUR

Holiday time? What are we called?

Apparently some Wikiholics sometimes feel the need for a Wikiholiday!

I was wondering if we have a collective name yet? Perhaps ZappaWikiWakars is too much.

Duncan 00:02, 25 Mar 2005 (PST)

He thinks he must be God, or something...

Found this in the "Protection log"

  • Category:Supporting Cast (KUR will keep an eye on this category for the time being)
  • Category:Tours (currently edited by KUR before it's open to the public)
  • Category:Videography (KUR will be regulating this category for now.)
  • Category:Discography (many have their own view on this category, someone needs to steer the ship)

Is this becoming a personal website?

- emdebe


God, it's God; I see God

"Is this becoming a personal website?"

Hmmmm... Maybe - to / for those who take his 'steering' personally? I can't fathom why it's so difficult to take/follow Barry's lead in this. It seems to me that he is only (desperately) trying to provide some much needed 'direction'. And (as he has proven) he's not always going to get it right; i.e. changing the ampersand in Freaks & Mother...; changing the title of Tinseltown, to the Ryko convention/error Tinsel Town. I personally don't agree with these changes. And when I see a change, or addition, with which I strongly disagree, I contact Barry personally, and question his decision - rather than make snide or insulting remarks that could be taken personally.

Most of the time - like in the case of Tinseltown, I simply go back and adjust what I have done to match his direction. Other times - like in the case of Freaks &..., I leave it the way I want it, and let him twiddle with re-directing. But I have no problem with following his lead and I take no offense at his leadership. I mean, someone has to do it and I'd rather it not be me. Without some kind of direction, the whole deal will spin out of control - and fast...

The one thing I really try hard NOT to do, is use this ultimately public forum for personal gripes, as it would only make me - NOT Barry - look like a complete ASS...

-- SOFA


The Head Cheese is NOT an ass, nor is any other contributor!

Is that clear enough to all? SOFA? Barry? Please note that these are black letters on a white background, tranposing complex thoughts..., er, what I want to say is, er, ... you know what I want to say, don't ya? And as I said before: I'm NOT the one who's going to spoil this party...

The thing is, we should have taken some time upfront to discuss things like, say "naming conventions" (firstname lastname vs lastname firstname), "target audience" ("anonymous visitor" vs "FZ fan"), and "Does Humor Belong In The Wiki"... Now these things tend to go unresolved... and it seems that only one person takes the decisions (whether we like them or not)...

I appreciate what the Head Cheese is doing to get this thing up and running - and I appreciate everybody who is contributing, whatever they are contributing... I just would like to see more of a concensus every now and then, and that issues get resolved in a democratic way...

So, if I have offended someone, I can only say: sorry... These are only black letters... If I really wanted to offend you, I would have contacted you personally... ;-)

- emdebe

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