Frank Kofsky interviews FZ - Revision history

Spider of Destiny at 23:19, 10 August 2026

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Jason.Kreitzer at 17:53, 14 September 2021

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Duncan at 13:12, 7 August 2021

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 And synthesize ...
-'''It strikes me as a kind of musical version of [[wikipedia:Berthold Brecht|Berthold Brecht]]. Might that be a correct inference?<br>
+'''It strikes me as a kind of musical version of [[wikipedia:Bertolt Brecht|Berthold Brecht]]. Might that be a correct inference?<br>
 Well, I'm not a Brecht fan because I don't know that much about what he does, but people keep saying that, so maybe it's true. I've read hardly any of his stuff. I've heard the "[[wikipedia:The Threepenny Opera|Threepenny Opera]]" – like half of it one time – couldn't sit through the rest.
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 Well, like if they're going to substitute any words substitute "do-do" for "shit," got that? And for "f***" we'll have "hunchy-punchy ." [Society has become very permissive in its acceptance of the use of four-letter uwords, especially in serious publications. We admit to being rather conservative but do permit the use of some four-letter words as this interview indicates. We recognize that in the future it will be difficult for a responsible periodical to omit the use of all four-letter words. Ed.]
-'''California is clearly the center of the new popular music. I wonder how you relate the Mothers to some of the Northern California groups like the [[Jefferson Airplane]], and the [[Grateful Dead]], and though it's a Southern California group, [[Love (The Band)|Love]]. I'm curious as to how you see the relationship between you and your audience compared to the relationship between them and their audience.<br>
+'''[[California]] is clearly the center of the new popular music. I wonder how you relate the Mothers to some of the Northern California groups like the [[Jefferson Airplane]], and the [[Grateful Dead]], and though it's a Southern California group, [[Love (The Band)|Love]]. I'm curious as to how you see the relationship between you and your audience compared to the relationship between them and their audience.<br>
-The whole San Francisco scene is promoting a love relationship between the audience and the group. The group is supposed to love the audience to death.
+The whole [[San Francisco]] scene is promoting a love relationship between the audience and the group. The group is supposed to love the audience to death.
 '''Do you think this exists in practice?<br>
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 I did.
-'''That's what I thought. Hence, "If you want to become a piano player, go out and buy a Cecil Taylor record." [As Zappa stated in Hit Parader].<br>
+'''That's what I thought. Hence, "If you want to become a piano player, go out and buy a [[Cecil Taylor]] record." [As Zappa stated in Hit Parader].<br>
 That whole Freak Out! album is to be as accessible as possible to the people who wanted to take the time to make it accessible. That list of names in there, if anybody were to research it, it would probably help them a great deal.
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 It's amazing to note that we had to force him to play in that [Coltranesque] vein, when we first had him in the band he was playing straight out of 1955 – Howard Ramsey's Light Love All-Stars.
-'''Oh, really? Well, now it sounds to me like vintage 1962 [[John Coltrane]], especially his work on the soprano; and also I hear some of the new music on the tenor and alto. You listen to that, then, I take it – beside Cecil [Taylor], you listen to Coltrane, too?<br>
+'''Oh, really? Well, now it sounds to me like vintage 1962 [[John Coltrane]], especially his work on the soprano; and also I hear some of the new music on the tenor and alto. You listen to that, then, I take it – beside Cecil [Taylor], you listen to [[John Coltrane|Coltrane]], too?<br>
-Well, I don't own any Coltrane, except that he's one artist on the anthology album that Tom Wilson produced in 1950. The one that has Cecil Taylor and Sun Ra. It's called [[Jazz in Transition]] – it's a classic.
+Well, I don't own any Coltrane, except that he's one artist on the anthology album that [[Tom Wilson]] produced in 1950. The one that has Cecil Taylor and [[Sun Ra]]. It's called [[Jazz in Transition]] – it's a classic.
 '''I thought I detected in your music a strong Coltrane overtone especially in the use of modes for extended improvisations. This is what puzzled me, though: Why do you keep the steady emphasis on 2 and 4, the steady backbeat?<br>

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 '''I meant to ask you earlier, when we were talking about your singles, how has the album done overall? Have you seen an audit on that?<br>
-Sure, I'll tell you very happily that the first album is around 150,000 right now; and they project sales of 250,000 for the second album by August. And [[Freak Out!]] still sells regularly between two and eight thousand copies a week, every week in places like Montana, [[Wyoming]], [[Florida]], Virginia, and all those places, man.
+Sure, I'll tell you very happily that the first album is around 150,000 right now; and they project sales of 250,000 for the second album by August. And [[Freak Out!]] still sells regularly between two and eight thousand copies a week, every week in places like Montana, [[Wyoming]], [[Florida]], [[Virginia]], and all those places, man.
 '''I know it's one of the top sellers in the record store in what passes for a campus area in Pittsburgh.<br>

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 '''I meant to ask you earlier, when we were talking about your singles, how has the album done overall? Have you seen an audit on that?<br>
-Sure, I'll tell you very happily that the first album is around 150,000 right now; and they project sales of 250,000 for the second album by August. And [[Freak Out!]] still sells regularly between two and eight thousand copies a week, every week in places like Montana, Wyoming, [[Florida]], Virginia, and all those places, man.
+Sure, I'll tell you very happily that the first album is around 150,000 right now; and they project sales of 250,000 for the second album by August. And [[Freak Out!]] still sells regularly between two and eight thousand copies a week, every week in places like Montana, [[Wyoming]], [[Florida]], Virginia, and all those places, man.
 '''I know it's one of the top sellers in the record store in what passes for a campus area in Pittsburgh.<br>

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 '''I meant to ask you earlier, when we were talking about your singles, how has the album done overall? Have you seen an audit on that?<br>
-Sure, I'll tell you very happily that the first album is around 150,000 right now; and they project sales of 250,000 for the second album by August. And [[Freak Out!]] still sells regularly between two and eight thousand copies a week, every week in places like Montana, Wyoming, Florida, Virginia, and all those places, man.
+Sure, I'll tell you very happily that the first album is around 150,000 right now; and they project sales of 250,000 for the second album by August. And [[Freak Out!]] still sells regularly between two and eight thousand copies a week, every week in places like Montana, Wyoming, [[Florida]], Virginia, and all those places, man.
 '''I know it's one of the top sellers in the record store in what passes for a campus area in Pittsburgh.<br>

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 '''What happened to them?<br>
-Well, [[How Could I Be Such A Fool|How Could I Be Such A Fool?]], which was released as our first single, sold 4,000 in Detroit. Imagine us on the radio selling records in Detroit.
+Well, [[How Could I Be Such A Fool|How Could I Be Such A Fool?]], which was released as our first single, sold 4,000 in [[Detroit]]. Imagine us on the radio selling records in Detroit.
 '''What was the B side?<br>

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 First of all, the market that we reach always existed, but the manner in which we reached that market was carefully planned; and the way we were presented to the record company was carefully planned. We were still turned down by every major company, which was best because we wound up with Wilson; I think that was a great advantage. He's been responsible, having been producing a long time, for most major weirdnesses in music. He was the first man to record [[Cecil Taylor]], and he recorded [[Bob Dylan|Dylan]] and [[Simon & Garfunkel]]. He was the one that made Dylan go rock and roll.
-Dylan's [[Subterranean Homesick Blues]] was a monster record. I heard that thing and I was jumping all over the car. And then when I heard the one after that, [[Like a Rolling Stone]], I wanted to quit the music business, because I felt: "If this wins and it does what it's supposed to do, I don't need to do anything else," but it didn't do anything. It sold; but nobody responded to it the way that they should have. They should have listened to that and said, "Hey, that record got on the radio. Now, wait a minute, we've got a chance to say something, you know? The radio is for us to use as a weapon." It didn't happen right away, and I was a little disappointed. I figured, "Well, shit, maybe it needs a little reinforcing."
+Dylan's [[Wikipedia:Subterranean Homesick Blues|Subterranean Homesick Blues]] was a monster record. I heard that thing and I was jumping all over the car. And then when I heard the one after that, [[Wikipedia:Like a Rolling Stone|Like a Rolling Stone]], I wanted to quit the music business, because I felt: "If this wins and it does what it's supposed to do, I don't need to do anything else," but it didn't do anything. It sold; but nobody responded to it the way that they should have. They should have listened to that and said, "Hey, that record got on the radio. Now, wait a minute, we've got a chance to say something, you know? The radio is for us to use as a weapon." It didn't happen right away, and I was a little disappointed. I figured, "Well, shit, maybe it needs a little reinforcing."
 '''Obviously it does, because people respond to those things and yet they can't immediately go beyond just responding emotionally and internally. They can't like go and do something at once.<br>
 You've got to make them involve themselves.
-'''Exactly. There was a very poignant thing I read, I believe it was Mary McCarthy writing about Vietnam in The New York Review, seeing the soldiers there – they're all nineteen-year-olds – singing [[Blowin' in the Wind]] and Where Have All the Flowers Gone? And then going out and killing the gooks – kill for peace! So obviously just identifying with "the message," while certainly a step forward, is not sufficient.<br>
+'''Exactly. There was a very poignant thing I read, I believe it was Mary McCarthy writing about Vietnam in The New York Review, seeing the soldiers there – they're all nineteen-year-olds – singing [[Wikipedia:Blowin' in the Wind|Blowin' in the Wind]] and Where Have All the Flowers Gone? And then going out and killing the gooks – kill for peace! So obviously just identifying with "the message," while certainly a step forward, is not sufficient.<br>
 Listen, we had three [[Marines]] in full-dress uniform on stage one night with us.
 '''What did you do then?<br>
-I'll tell you the story. A Marine was killed in the Village, remember? And there was a rumor that every Marine within shooting distance was coming down to beat up everybody they found with long hair. The week following that rumor, we're rehearsing in the theatre and in walk three full-dress Marines. So I said, "Oh, hello there, why don't you come in and sit down." I just went on with our rehearsal; we didn't pay any attention to them. When we were done, they said, "We just bought your album and we really like it." These kids, nineteen years old, stationed on the carrier Wasp at shore here, clean, you know? I said, "Well, I'm glad you do. Hey, listen, how would you guys like to work with us a tonight?" They were really turned on. I said, "Can you sing?" They said, "Yeah." "What do you know?" "Well, I know, [[Everybody Must Get Stoned]] and [[House of the Rising Sun]]. So we went across the street to have dinner; I ate and they practiced their songs. Come back, we do this number. I said, "Now look, there's one little thing I want you to do. When I give you the signal, I want all three of you guys to lunge for the microphone and start screaming 'Kill!' " So we played like that "Archie" [Shepp], weirdness, with the dissonant chords and all that, and on cue they ran right to the mikes, started screaming "Kill!" The audience just went – they couldn't handle it. Then when it was over, they clapped. So I said to the audience, "Thank you"; and then [[Ray Collins|Ray]] [Collins] says to the audience, "Thank you"; and then when I pointed to the Marines to have them say "Thank you," the first one walks up to the mike and says: "Eat the apple, fuck the core" [i.e., Corps]. And everybody went, "Whew!" Oh wow. And then the second one, he comes up and says: "Eat the apple, fuck the core." Point to the third one; he goes up, he says: "Hey, you know, I feel the same way as my other two buddies: Eat the apple, fuck the core. Some of us love our mothers more." Full-dress blues, man – they just burned a dozen flags.
+I'll tell you the story. A Marine was killed in the Village, remember? And there was a rumor that every Marine within shooting distance was coming down to beat up everybody they found with long hair. The week following that rumor, we're rehearsing in the theatre and in walk three full-dress Marines. So I said, "Oh, hello there, why don't you come in and sit down." I just went on with our rehearsal; we didn't pay any attention to them. When we were done, they said, "We just bought your album and we really like it." These kids, nineteen years old, stationed on the carrier Wasp at shore here, clean, you know? I said, "Well, I'm glad you do. Hey, listen, how would you guys like to work with us a tonight?" They were really turned on. I said, "Can you sing?" They said, "Yeah." "What do you know?" "Well, I know, [[Everybody Must Get Stoned]] and [[Eric Burdon|House of the Rising Sun]]. So we went across the street to have dinner; I ate and they practiced their songs. Come back, we do this number. I said, "Now look, there's one little thing I want you to do. When I give you the signal, I want all three of you guys to lunge for the microphone and start screaming 'Kill!' " So we played like that "Archie" [Shepp], weirdness, with the dissonant chords and all that, and on cue they ran right to the mikes, started screaming "Kill!" The audience just went – they couldn't handle it. Then when it was over, they clapped. So I said to the audience, "Thank you"; and then [[Ray Collins|Ray]] [Collins] says to the audience, "Thank you"; and then when I pointed to the Marines to have them say "Thank you," the first one walks up to the mike and says: "Eat the apple, fuck the core" [i.e., Corps]. And everybody went, "Whew!" Oh wow. And then the second one, he comes up and says: "Eat the apple, fuck the core." Point to the third one; he goes up, he says: "Hey, you know, I feel the same way as my other two buddies: Eat the apple, fuck the core. Some of us love our mothers more." Full-dress blues, man – they just burned a dozen flags.
 '''Court martial!<br>

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 Influenced by "I'm losing status at the high school?"
-'''Yeah, and that whole genre: "[[You're Probably Wondering Why I'm Here]]," and "Mr. America, walk on by" (from [[Hungry Freaks, Daddy]]).<br>
+'''Yeah, and that whole genre: "[[You're Probably Wondering Why I'm Here]]," and "Mr. America, walk on by" (from [[Hungry Freaks, Daddy (1966 - Los Angeles)|Hungry Freaks, Daddy]]).<br>
 Unfortunately, that's the genre that brought these fan letters to us.

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 '''Just from the grapevine I know that there are several English groups like the Yardbirds and Eric Burdon's that seem to be intrigued by what you're doing. Can you think of any other English groups, or American groups for that matter, that have made the Mothers' influence explicit?<br>
-No, but let me tell you how far it's gone with the ''[[The Animals|Animals]].'' First of all, it's common knowledge in the industry that, the way it was explained to me (and this is not my opinion of what they've done up 'til now), that they were the typical noncreative rock-and-roll group who have made a success performing material that was not necessarily original and which was not written by any member of the group.
+No, but let me tell you how far it's gone with the ''[[Eric Burdon|Animals]].'' First of all, it's common knowledge in the industry that, the way it was explained to me (and this is not my opinion of what they've done up 'til now), that they were the typical noncreative rock-and-roll group who have made a success performing material that was not necessarily original and which was not written by any member of the group.
 '''They've said that. [[Eric Burdon]] has said that they've had great problems writing their own material.<br>

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 '''Have you thought about playing dances at all?<br>
-Yes. They dance, in a bizarre way. Los Angeles is the best place for us to play for dancing because the kids dance better there; they dance free. Here in town you get these pigs trying to do the boogaloo and all that stuff to what we do, and their legs get all tangled up and they fall down.
+Yes. They dance, in a bizarre way. Los Angeles is the best place for us to play for dancing because the kids dance better there; they dance free. Here in town you get these pigs trying to do the [[wikipedia:Boogaloo (funk dance)|boogaloo]] and all that stuff to what we do, and their legs get all tangled up and they fall down.
 '''Ever since I got the John Coltrane Live at the Village Vanguard Again, I've been dancing around the house to it, and there's not a fixed beat. From that, it occurred to me, people have said that one of the reasons jazz is losing an audience is because you can't dance to it, but that's nonsense. You can dance to it, but you can't just do the boogaloo to it. You can dance to any piece of music you hear – in fact, you can dance even if you don't hear music.

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 '''It strikes me as a kind of musical version of [[wikipedia:Berthold Brecht|Berthold Brecht]]. Might that be a correct inference?<br>
-Well, I'm not a Brecht fan because I don't know that much about what he does, but people keep saying that, so maybe it's true. I've read hardly any of his stuff. I've heard the "[[Threepenny Opera]]" – like half of it one time – couldn't sit through the rest.
+Well, I'm not a Brecht fan because I don't know that much about what he does, but people keep saying that, so maybe it's true. I've read hardly any of his stuff. I've heard the "[[wikipedia:The Threepenny Opera|Threepenny Opera]]" – like half of it one time – couldn't sit through the rest.
 '''I don't necessarily mean that you were copying him. It just seems to me that his idea was that you could use art to galvanize people into some kind of action.<br>